1:11:08

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ATimmins
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1:11:08

Post by ATimmins » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:45 pm

San Jose Half - Starting to get frustrated here guys.  Ran better last year, thinking of converting back to the old methods.  Really haven't done anything worth while even though ive consistantly hit over 100mpw.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
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ap4305
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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ap4305 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:37 pm

I think a similar discussion came up last year, but the fact is that you may need someone to manage your training individually on a more regular basis and with a defined long term protocol.  At your high level, success is all about managing the day-to-day details and less about big picture methods.  You've made some pretty rapid progress in your young career but at some point just throwing more mileage or new methods at "problems" either won't work or will take much longer to work than a more nuanced approach.  I'm not saying less mileage is an answer (in fact, I'd say less mileage ISN'T the answer), but "the devil is in the details."  I'm obviously a Tinman guy, but the most important thing is finding someone or something that will keep the ball rolling week after week since it is really those details that will make or break you.  I really don't care who it is or what their methods are so long as they hold true to the principles of consistency and development.  Any system that cultivates consistency is by definition a good one, in my opinion.   
Allan Phillips
Doctor of Physical Therapy
Tinman athlete since 2003
www.ventanapt.physio
IG: @thekettlebelldoc

ATimmins
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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ATimmins » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:51 pm

Last year a very basic system worked for me.  It wasn't fun, and everyone said it was the wrong way, or there was better ways.  But every time i tried a new way, i feel as though i wasted time.  I only have 2 months left of my season, so its back to the basics and we will re-establish goals after that.

We shall see, i guess i just needed to vent.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

Wellpark

Re: 1:11:08

Post by Wellpark » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:30 am

Timmins,

I feel your pain. You instinctively know that you can go faster if you get the combination of training right. You are dedicated and will follow advice when given.

Lydiard often spoke about having to be prepared to lose races, even a few weeks out from Key events. There are always times when we don't perform as well as we think we should and those under par performances are the toughest to take.

I can only try to encourage you by saying that 'time is not running out'. With a good coach and time to reflect you can learn from your race experience  and progress.

I am prepared to run and race slower before I improve and I have had to do that in order to reap the rewards later. From my very limited knowledge of your training you have the quantity and quality under the bonnet. What you have done less of this season, is race.

This does not mean you need to be racing more, how often you race, depends on your goals. Sharpening and being in peak race shape is Key and I have read a few threads where you focus on this. What AP is suggesting is right. You need someone that you can trust, who knows and understands how 'You Tick'. General principles will not do this for you.

My old coach used to remind me of a very important principle, 'miles in the bank'. Something I heard here was 'the hay is in the barn'. Take courage you have not lost the ability you had last year, you are most certainly more conditioned. The question is how to cash in on your investment.

I wish you every success. You have the talent.

Wellpark

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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ATimmins » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:29 pm

1:09:40, thank you guys for the kind words.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

Wellpark

Re: 1:11:08

Post by Wellpark » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:33 am

That's great Timmins,

What race? How did it feel? Whats next?

All the best

Wellpark

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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ATimmins » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:04 am

humboldt half marathon.  I knew by my workouts i was fitter, just couldn't figure out why i was having such a rough time racing.  I think it was a mental thing more than anything, so i told myself that i was fit and i just needed to go for it.  So i told myself at humboldt i would just go out hard and try to hold on.  Next thing you know, me , a teammate, and one other guy are clicking off miles pulling away from the pack.  We all knew eachother, which made for a good enviroment.  I lead out for a few miles in 5:15-5:20 pace, then the other guy took over for a few miles, and then finally my teammate took over for 6-8.  We dropped a 5:05 at mile 8 which kinda took the snap out of my legs.  Right after that the other guy started to pull and i fell off, and then did my team mate.  For the next 5 miles it was me trying to real in my team mate unsuccessfully.  I got within 5-10 yards of him a few times, but never could make contact.  Ended up finishing 10 seconds behind him.

Come to find out the first place guy ran 68:30, so he picked up a minute on us in like 5 miles, but we found out from some other people he is a sub 4 minute miler, so i don't feel that bad.  Nice guy afterwards, looking forward to racing him some more.

Next, clarksburg Half, Solano Turkey Trot 5k, then CIM.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

dwang_71

Re: 1:11:08

Post by dwang_71 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:31 pm

I was hoping you can share your tapering strategy for CIM as I am also running it, but no where close to your level, but always appreciate learning from how others taper. It is the most difficult part for me in the training. I am following Tinman's training approach pretty closely and plan to avg 100 mile weeks for the next 3-4 weeks with two key workouts per week (1 TT and 1 long run with some MP miles). I just finally logged two consective 100 weeks and feel pretty good. Not sure how to taper for an upcoming 5k in the middle of this training cycle also. Just wanted to get your thoughts or anyone else reading this thread.
Thanks!
Dwang_71

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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ap4305 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:24 pm

[quote="dwang_71"]
Not sure how to taper for an upcoming 5k in the middle of this training cycle also. Just wanted to get your thoughts or anyone else reading this thread.
[/quote]

For a Sunday race (obviously shift one day forward for Saturday race).  Unless it is a 5k that you really care about, treat it similarly to how you would prepare for a track workout.  A couple of lighter days will have you ready to give it an honest effort on race day, but without destroying your marathon training.     

Friday - Short and easy
Saturday - Still short but on the faster end of easy
Sunday - Normal warmup.  30-45 minute cooldown.  Then run 30-40 minutes in the afternoon very easy.
Allan Phillips
Doctor of Physical Therapy
Tinman athlete since 2003
www.ventanapt.physio
IG: @thekettlebelldoc

ATimmins
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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ATimmins » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:43 pm

For a 5k you have to ask yourself, is it a race or is it a workout? 

There is no middle ground.  If it's a workout, treat it as a vo2 workout and don't taper.  Shift your workouts so you don't do a vo2 effort that week other than the race.

If its a race, then a 2 or 3 day taper is all you need.  I like 50%, 0%, 25% the 3 days prior.  so if your doing 10 and 5 usually, do 5 strides and 2.5(round if you want), and 3.5 w/ strides(rounded) but everyone tapers differently so do what you do best.

As for CIM, you should read tinmans article on tapering becuase everyone is different.  I do best off of short tapers, so you will see that i will probably do a Thanksgiving 5k as my final hard effort, a couple of 75% days, then drop to 50% for the final week with a steep fall of at the end:

Heres an example:

If i usually do 10 a day and 20 on the weekends, then 10 days prior would look like

Thur:5k
Friday: 7.5 (75%)
Saturday:7.5 (75%)
Sunday: 10 (50%)
Mon: 5 (50%)
Tuesday: Abbreviated Workout
Wed: 5 (50%)
Thur: 5 (50%)
Fri: 0 (hell yea)
Sat: 2.5 (25%)
Sun: Race
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

dwang_71

Re: 1:11:08

Post by dwang_71 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:09 pm

If i usually do 10 a day and 20 on the weekends, then 10 days prior would look like

Thur:5k
Friday: 7.5 (75%)
Saturday:7.5 (75%)
Sunday: 10 (50%)
Mon: 5 (50%)
Tuesday: Abbreviated Workout
Wed: 5 (50%)
Thur: 5 (50%)
Fri: 0 (hell yea)
Sat: 2.5 (25%)
Sun: Race

Thanks! Great info. I am like you and feel I don't need a long taper. I tried the traditional 3 week taper and it has left me feeling flat on race day so I prefer a shorter taper.

Friday - Short and easy
Saturday - Still short but on the faster end of easy
Sunday - Normal warmup.  30-45 minute cooldown.  Then run 30-40 minutes in the afternoon very easy.


As for the 5K, I will treat it as a VO2 workout for that week and run a couple easy miles as warm up that morning before the race as AP suggested then do the race and run 30-40 easy in the afternoon to maintain my weekly mileage. So I still plan to do my tempo run early in the week of my 5K (2-3 mile warm-up, 5-6 miles @ HMP, 2-3 miles cool down). That is not too much I hope and then maintain the rest of the week at moderate to easy 10 mile runs  towards the last couple of days before the 5k race which is on Saturday. I plan to do my long run on Sunday still, but will probably modify it to do 15 easy pace and 5 x 1 mile at MP with 2 minute recovery float pace, but will see how I feel. Does that sound about right or is that shooting for too much the week of the 5k race?

dwang_71

Re: 1:11:08

Post by dwang_71 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:26 pm

ATimmins,
What time are you shooting to run at CIM?

ATimmins
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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ATimmins » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:10 pm

clarksburg x 2.085

:)
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ap4305 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:26 pm

[quote="dwang_71"]
So I still plan to do my tempo run early in the week of my 5K (2-3 mile warm-up, 5-6 miles @ HMP, 2-3 miles cool down).
[/quote]

Only change I would suggest is to do this workout in interval form.  Physiologically, the difference between the continuous run and the intervals is negligible, but mentally the 5-6 mile straight at that pace is pretty demanding in the middle of hard training, especially a few days before you put on a number and post a time that "counts".  Even though the 5k isn't high priority, I think the tempo intervals provide the best balance for the simultaneous objectives of the tempo workout, the 5k, and maintaining your marathon training.  Most important thing is to keep the mileage close to normal, minus any small cutbacks the day or two before the 5k. 
Allan Phillips
Doctor of Physical Therapy
Tinman athlete since 2003
www.ventanapt.physio
IG: @thekettlebelldoc

ATimmins
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Re: 1:11:08

Post by ATimmins » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:54 pm

I 2nd AP's suggestion.

You will get the same benefits in anaerobic conditioning, but it will lessen the affect it will have on your legs for the race. 

Keep us in the loop and let us know how training is going.
Forced into running and loving every minute
1.5 Mile:
First = 13:38
Current = 7:10
Powered by Powerbar - www.powerbar.com
Dressed for Success in Brooks - www.brooksrunning.com
Running log - http://www.logarun.com/calendars/atimmins/
Running Blog - http://www.powerbar.com/blog/atimmins.aspx

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