Winter Training

Featuring TheRunZone?s resident coach Tinman. All participants are welcome to post and reply to topics in this section whether you?re looking for advice, or sharing your own coaching experience.

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runner1524
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Winter Training

Post by runner1524 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:21 am

Dear Tinman Forums,
Background: I’m a sophomore and my xc season ended about 3 weeks ago. Since then, I took a 7 day break and in the last 2 weeks I’ve been doing only easy/moderate running with one long run per week.

My questions are:
How many weeks should I do only easy/moderate running, when should I add harder workouts like fartlecks, tempos, hills, and cv work? And, how many quality workouts per week should I be doing?

My pr this season in xc was 16:58. In track I will be focusing on the 1600. I will be doing indoor track.

Thanks a lot!

runner1524
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Re: Winter Training

Post by runner1524 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:27 am

I forgot to add what my schedule looks like right now.
Sunday: 60 minute long run @easy w/ strides
Monday: 30-35 minute @easy w/ strides
Tuesday: 40-45 minute @easy w/ strides
Wednesday: 30-35 minute @moderate
Thursday: 35-40 minute @easy w/ strides
Friday: 30-35 minute @moderate
Saturday: 40-45 minute @easy

FTIR
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Re: Winter Training

Post by FTIR » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:31 am

After two weeks of that schedule, it's time to add workouts with the correct paces, right away, unless indoor track season is going to start really soon.

Notice I did not say hard workouts, I did not say even full correct Tinman workouts, just workouts that include stamina paces, as well as hills, and your strides.

I take it you are aware of the generic Tinman schedule viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2339&p=13051&hilit=elmira#p13051

From where you seem to be, the idea is to make sure you run your CV and tempo runs at the correct paces for the shape you are in right now.

Your 16:58 is wonderful but after a week off and two weeks of that schedule, you might not even be able to break 18 on a track, by yourself, in the cold, possibly in the dark.

So put 18:00 into Tinman's calculator https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php and find some SLOW paces for CV and tempo.

You want SLOW CV and tempo paces because you are going from no workouts to workouts quickly. You also want to increase the rest between CV reps, even 3 min is fine for a while. It's a good idea to do no more than 50% or at most 75% of the volume of CV or tempo pace recommended by Tinman's rules of thumb
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2576&p=14490&hilit= ... ule#p14490 as you jump to doing workouts. You just want to feel like you are going through ALL the right motions without any more effort than you are putting into your current mileage schedule.

Most likely you can just go through the 18:00 based motions until indoor starts in December. If indoor doesn't start until January, you can progress CV/tempo volume up to normal levels over December. Unless your 16:58 PR was run early in the XC season and you ran several 17:0X (or equivalent on the 16:58 course) 5kXC races across October and into November, stick with the 18:00 paces.

Remember, when track starts you are going to go through another jump in training level and another jump when your indoor races start. The point of the schedule I describe is to get you ready to BENEFIT from those jumps rather than to get you into racing shape for the first day of practice.

runner1524
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Re: Winter Training

Post by runner1524 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:37 pm

FTIR wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:31 am
After two weeks of that schedule, it's time to add workouts with the correct paces, right away, unless indoor track season is going to start really soon.

Notice I did not say hard workouts, I did not say even full correct Tinman workouts, just workouts that include stamina paces, as well as hills, and your strides.

I take it you are aware of the generic Tinman schedule viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2339&p=13051&hilit=elmira#p13051

From where you seem to be, the idea is to make sure you run your CV and tempo runs at the correct paces for the shape you are in right now.

Your 16:58 is wonderful but after a week off and two weeks of that schedule, you might not even be able to break 18 on a track, by yourself, in the cold, possibly in the dark.

So put 18:00 into Tinman's calculator https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php and find some SLOW paces for CV and tempo.

You want SLOW CV and tempo paces because you are going from no workouts to workouts quickly. You also want to increase the rest between CV reps, even 3 min is fine for a while. It's a good idea to do no more than 50% or at most 75% of the volume of CV or tempo pace recommended by Tinman's rules of thumb
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2576&p=14490&hilit= ... ule#p14490 as you jump to doing workouts. You just want to feel like you are going through ALL the right motions without any more effort than you are putting into your current mileage schedule.

Most likely you can just go through the 18:00 based motions until indoor starts in December. If indoor doesn't start until January, you can progress CV/tempo volume up to normal levels over December. Unless your 16:58 PR was run early in the XC season and you ran several 17:0X (or equivalent on the 16:58 course) 5kXC races across October and into November, stick with the 18:00 paces.

Remember, when track starts you are going to go through another jump in training level and another jump when your indoor races start. The point of the schedule I describe is to get you ready to BENEFIT from those jumps rather than to get you into racing shape for the first day of practice.
I will be running the footlocker regionals in a week. Should I base my paces off of the time that I get there? I bet I will get under 18. And, I have no coach for indoor, I practice by myself and run the meets unattached so I will be able to run the whole season wi th my own training plan.

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Re: Winter Training

Post by FTIR » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:26 pm

Can you explain why you are running footlocker, given that you have reset your training?
Can you explain why you didn't mention running footlocker in your original post?
Wouldn't you think that running footlocker would matter to when you should start with workouts?
Coaching yourself all winter including an indoor season adds many more variables. I am not sure how well I can cover them all well in a few posts.
As Tom usually says in these situations, one question at a time. My comment would be more that you need to spend the time reading on here to figure it out for yourself.

The time you run at footlocker, may well be under 18. You still shouldn't use faster than 18:00 as you start workouts.
A sub-18 footlocker time would be achieved with lots of adrenaline in a race situation, your workouts will be done by yourself, without any excitement.

Look around on here. Tinman talks about using a race time that you can, for sure, do on the day of the workout when you might be tired from staying up late or slogging because you are wearing 2 layers of sweats. As the weeks go by, you can alternate adding/lengthing reps and slowly upping the time you can do on workout days.

runner1524
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Re: Winter Training

Post by runner1524 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:16 pm

FTIR wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:26 pm
Can you explain why you are running footlocker, given that you have reset your training?
Can you explain why you didn't mention running footlocker in your original post?
My team ran footlocker for the first time last year and we didn’t train for it as our season was 3-4 weeks over and we had no one running the championship race.

I’m running the freshman/ sophomore race so it isn’t an important race for me (yet). I was planning on using it as a harder run.

Lastly, I didn’t say I was running footlocker in the original post because I don’t go all out in it and I was only asking for advice with when to do hard workouts, I would use footlocker as one of those hard workouts.

If I run under 16:20 junior/ senior year and am able to run the gold/ championship race, I will keep training past the regular season.


Sorry for the confusion, thank you for helping me with this. No need to respond, I will try to figure out the rest.

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Re: Winter Training

Post by FTIR » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:37 am

OK, that makes sense in terms of footlocker.
Feel free as you figure out your training this fall/winter to post what you plan to do.
I should be able to comment or better post links to Tinman's comments on similar issues.
Good luck

runner1524
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Re: Winter Training

Post by runner1524 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:42 pm

Quick update: didn’t run footlocker- I was sick. Ended up having to take Wednesday-Saturday off. I ran an easy 3 miles today just making sure I was easing into it.
First indoor meet is in 2 weeks. Probably going to run the 1600 and 800 so I’ll post how I do.

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Re: Winter Training

Post by FTIR » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:14 pm

Getting sick and then trying to race is really hard to coach over the web. Exactly what your sickness involved, how much sleep/nutrition you get when and lots of other variables go into the optimal answer. There are lots of examples where a week or two after a short sickness, you actually race better because you have a mini-peak. As you seem to be doing, start back cautiously and be ready to cut workouts if they don't feel right. From 2010, Tom writes about someone who got sick while traveling:

"Traveling is always hard on the human body; and running well while traveling is nearly impossible. Relax, run easy and often, put your watch away and just run comfortably on your regular routes, and let your body come around."

So running every day is still fine, maybe even short doubles on the weekend are possible to get more mileage before you are ready to do daily longish runs.
But only if you feel like you are bouncing back well. This thread has more suggestions.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1884&p=9025&hilit=t ... ness#p9025

runner1524
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Re: Winter Training

Post by runner1524 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:17 pm

Thanks for the link.
I’m feeling mentally and physically ready so I’m going back to normal training tomorrow after an easy day today (30 min @easy pace).
Also, thanks for all of your help so far.
I have reached out to an alumni of our team and he is helping me with a training plan so I will be getting all of my workouts from him and I’m pretty excited.
I’m 13 days out from the first indoor meet and I’m hoping to run 5:10 and 2:30 (800 is 2 events after the 1600 so there’s little rest)
These aren’t really ambitious goals because I’ve just gotten off the break and I have no idea where my fitness is at.

Thanks!

runner1524
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Re: Winter Training

Post by runner1524 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:23 pm

Just had my first indoor meet. Mile: 5:03 800: 2:21
Well, FTIR you were right! A 5:03 mile is equal to a 17:09 5k on the Tinman chart. Since I didn’t run footlocker I will probably use the 5:03 mile for my training paces.
Training has been going pretty good. I’m running more miles than I usually do per week in xc. I should be at around 40 miles for this week. An alumni from our team is coaching me over the winter since I have no coach for it.
Next indoor meet is mid January and I’m going to be running the 3000 and 800.
Thanks again.

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Re: Winter Training

Post by NIch_xc » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:34 pm

runner1524 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:23 pm
Just had my first indoor meet. Mile: 5:03 800: 2:21
Well, FTIR you were right! A 5:03 mile is equal to a 17:09 5k on the Tinman chart. Since I didn’t run footlocker I will probably use the 5:03 mile for my training paces.
Training has been going pretty good. I’m running more miles than I usually do per week in xc. I should be at around 40 miles for this week. An alumni from our team is coaching me over the winter since I have no coach for it.
Next indoor meet is mid January and I’m going to be running the 3000 and 800.
Thanks again.
I wouldn't base training paces off that mile, rather find that in-between mile - 5k equivalent and your 5k PR and average those or just add 5+ sec to your mile. In training, you're not going to be at optimal fitness everyday, you want to train a little light instead of too hard. You could also just focus on running by feel.

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Re: Winter Training

Post by jacobcak545 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:21 am

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