10K Sunday

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roadracebc
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10K Sunday

Post by roadracebc » Wed May 28, 2014 6:11 pm

I have a 10K this Sunday and ran a 20:46 5K in November and  20:51 5K in January.  I have had good training and averaged 49 miles/week for the last 13 weeks.  Until this year I have never ran over 44 miles in any one week.  Last October I ran a 10K in 44:30 and know that my fitness has improved a lot, I just don't know how much.  I ran a 10 miler @ 7:34 pace three weeks ago but it is a very hilly course.  On a flat course, I believe that my fitness would have been around 7:10-7:15 pace.  Looking for advice on leading up to the race this Sunday.  In my head, I believe that I should be around 7:00 pace.  I enjoy reading all of these postings and all of you have helped me keep my easy miles easy.
Thanks,
Bob

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Re: 10K Sunday

Post by BoilerTom90 » Thu May 29, 2014 11:22 am

Your "head" pace seems like a reasonable stab. Thing is, you haven't race in a while, and it's really hard to make predictions from training runs, unless you really were aware of your effort level on those training runs. Maybe you were since you are thinking 7's is a decent pace to try for.  However, if the 10 miler at a 7;34 pace was an easy effort, you're in better shape than 7's for a 10K.

Your best bet is to go out at a pace you think you can effectively maintain the whole way -- just remembers, a hard-raced 10K hurts more than 5K the second half. If you get to the 5K mark and feel like picking it up, then do so. It's far better to run negative splits than major positive ones.

monica
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Re: 10K Sunday

Post by monica » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:44 pm

[quote="BoilerTom90"]just remembers, a hard-raced 10K hurts more than 5K the second half.[/quote]

That's strange to me. For me 5K hurts more than second half of 10K. I still don't know how to run 5K's properly. My paces for 10K races come out better than my 5K paces, relatively. Like, 10K pace is only a few seconds slower in pace per km or mile compared to 5K.

Seems like I just don't instinctively have it down for the 5K's. For distances around 1500-3000m, I'm fine, it's short enough to really give it all. And 10K is long enough to just "coast" in the first part of it and then really go hard for the last couple of miles and then feel like I really did a good race because the average pace for entire race is pretty cool. But the 5K... I just don't know what strategy to do in those. :/ After halfway I just don't know anymore if I'm going too fast or not. I tend to decide it's too fast and then I reserve too much energy until near the finish line. I'm thinking next time I'll try going at estimated 5K pace/effort for first half and then just focus on maintaining the pace until 3000m - while telling myself that after the 3K mark I can slow down a bit :) - and then focus on maintaining it until 4000m in the same fashion and then the finish line is close enough for me to just give it all anyway.

Does that sound like a good strategy?

Though it's possible that the training I do doesn't favour the 5K distance. Or maybe it's my genes. I just know that there is this pretty distinct "line" dividing paces, below that line I feel like it's pretty sustainable even with quite some discomfort, but stepping above that line it suddenly feels goddamn hard and unfortunately I never tried to see just exactly how long I can maintain it, of course it's maybe longer than I think...no idea. And it's only like a few seconds difference in pace stepping over that "line". And only a couple of bpm in heart rate.

PS: Hope this isn't seen as a thread hijack :)
Last edited by monica on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

monica
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Re: 10K Sunday

Post by monica » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:53 pm

[quote="roadracebc"]
I have a 10K this Sunday and ran a 20:46 5K in November and  20:51 5K in January.  I have had good training and averaged 49 miles/week for the last 13 weeks.  Until this year I have never ran over 44 miles in any one week.  Last October I ran a 10K in 44:30 and know that my fitness has improved a lot, I just don't know how much.  I ran a 10 miler @ 7:34 pace three weeks ago but it is a very hilly course.  On a flat course, I believe that my fitness would have been around 7:10-7:15 pace.  Looking for advice on leading up to the race this Sunday.  In my head, I believe that I should be around 7:00 pace.  I enjoy reading all of these postings and all of you have helped me keep my easy miles easy.
Thanks,
Bob
[/quote]

If you really could do a 7:10 pace for 10miles then under same circumstances,  sub-7 for 10K definitely, I think :) But as that's just an estimate I wouldn't go out at sub-7 if I were you. Based on everything, starting out at 7:00-7:05 is definitely okay and then pick it up if you can. Assuming that the circumstances - weather, course, fitness etc - are the same as for the estimates based on your 10 miler, of course.
Last edited by monica on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 10K Sunday

Post by Captainblood » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:42 pm

What I learned (mostly from Tinman and others) and what I used to know instinctively is that proper pacing in the 5k is not only going to help dictate whether or not you run a time that approximates your fitness but it will heavily factor into how much you suffer.

My first few races coming back as a master I would fly and die because I wanted to keep contact with a faster group of runners.  I would run a really fast first mile and hurt a little, but no big deal.  The second mile I would begin to suffer and slow down.  When will this race end I would think.  The third mile I would slow down some more and really be hurting.  This sucks.  Then I would sprint the final 100 meters.  Dumb.  I essentially suffered for the entire race.

What I learned is the first mile should be a cake walk.  Let's say you can run 3 miles in 18 minutes.  A mile in 6 minutes is a joke.  It's easy -- just put it on cruise control and run it.

Around a mile and a half is when you should first start to feel you are under duress.  Now the work begins.  I need to focus on my form and breathing a bit.  In my mind, I just shrunk the race in half.  A lot of runners are just trying to survive at the halfway mark.  They have been suffering for awhile.  My mind and body are fresh.  Their minds have already begun to go to that dark place of self doubt.

A lot of my races are easier than my hard days.  And a lot of that has to do with psychology.  I'm not nervous at the start.  Just run the first mile at 'x' pace and let the competitive juices take it from there.  No big deal.

monica
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Re: 10K Sunday

Post by monica » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:17 am

Captainblood wrote: What I learned (mostly from Tinman and others) and what I used to know instinctively is that proper pacing in the 5k is not only going to help dictate whether or not you run a time that approximates your fitness but it will heavily factor into how much you suffer.
Yeah I'm sure that the best strategy will help with that too. :) and thanks for describing yours, it's helpful!

My first few races coming back as a master I would fly and die because I wanted to keep contact with a faster group of runners.  I would run a really fast first mile and hurt a little, but no big deal.  The second mile I would begin to suffer and slow down.  When will this race end I would think.  The third mile I would slow down some more and really be hurting.  This sucks.  Then I would sprint the final 100 meters.  Dumb.  I essentially suffered for the entire race.
I see. My problem is somewhat different from yours, I don't even run a lightning fast first mile. I often don't even manage to speed up that much at the start. At times it was possible to speed up though. Not sure what that depends on. But anyway I think that's okay, this way I wouldn't go out too fast :)

I do feel some suffering after 2000-2500m into the race and that's when I decide to reserve the energy - for too long because then I find that I'm too fresh near the end. The third mile doesn't hurt enough this way, only the last 500m because that's when I decide to speed up again.

I really need to convince my own mind that I *can* speed up earlier in 5K's. In the 10K I speed up much earlier and it's hard but it's not that terrible and it's great.

What I learned is the first mile should be a cake walk.  Let's say you can run 3 miles in 18 minutes.  A mile in 6 minutes is a joke.  It's easy -- just put it on cruise control and run it.
Hm well, running a mile at 5K pace if calculating it from 10K pace isn't a cake walk for me. :) Though, if I take the relatively slow-ish average pace that I actually do for 5K's, it's pretty okay to run that pace for a mile yes. Though I always feel that the legs don't have enough "turnover" at that pace. So, in 5K's, I often feel like I'm running a long distance instead of 5K.

When I did time trials in the past for shorter distances than 5K, I didn't have that problem. Nice turnover for those distances :)

Around a mile and a half is when you should first start to feel you are under duress.
Yeah that's about when it starts for me too. The legs aren't dead though and the heart rate is not crazy high either, it's just me starting to be unsure how the race will go if I don't let up a bit.

Now the work begins.  I need to focus on my form and breathing a bit.  In my mind, I just shrunk the race in half.  A lot of runners are just trying to survive at the halfway mark.  They have been suffering for awhile.  My mind and body are fresh.  Their minds have already begun to go to that dark place of self doubt.
Yeah.. This trick of shrinking the race in half is what could work for me too :)

A lot of my races are easier than my hard days.  And a lot of that has to do with psychology.  I'm not nervous at the start.  Just run the first mile at 'x' pace and let the competitive juices take it from there.  No big deal.
I'm also not nervous at the start or even later in the race, I'm actually almost too calm. I've conditioned myself for that, because in my first race years ago I didn't like the way my HR was affected by too much adrenaline. I was walking around at a 160+ HR before race start and that race didn't turn out well at all. (That race wasn't 5K btw)

Now, maybe me being too calm has also got something to do with me not doing the 5K right. Maybe I should allow to get more of that adrenaline flowing and be more reckless, not reserving energy halfway. :)
Last edited by monica on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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